tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14856978.post2025393531252424956..comments2024-03-28T05:12:10.477-07:00Comments on Gone Gaming: Who Goes Next?Coldfoothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11636345146138362966noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14856978.post-82918579114531396072007-12-07T13:14:00.000-08:002007-12-07T13:14:00.000-08:00Good topic, Shannon. It's very true that a lot of...Good topic, Shannon. It's very true that a lot of thought is now put into the formerly simple question of "who goes first?" It was even true for some earlier designs. The first game I've encountered which used the "first player rotates clockwise" scheme was Eon's Borderlands, from way back in 1982. This well may be the first use of that mechanic. As Bruno can attest, it was one of many innovations from that great design.<BR/><BR/>Two of the notable games from Essen use unusual methods to choose the first player for the next round. In Agricola, one of the action spaces lets you go first, a privilege you retain until another player claims the space. In Brass, player order is determined by how much money the players spent on the previous turn, with the *lowest* amount going first.<BR/><BR/>The Thebes timeline system is indeed brilliant. It was also used in almost the exact same form in Neuland, which actually came out slightly earlier. The publishing dates are sufficiently close that this was probably a case of parallel development.<BR/><BR/>Finally, to answer Tim's question, there's no need to come up with a first player variant for Tikal, as the auction in the advanced game handles that problem extremely well. Tikal is sufficiently great that I'll play it anyway I can, but there's no question that I prefer it with the auctions.huzonfirsthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12857915477472022870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14856978.post-7543782613154350672007-12-06T14:44:00.000-08:002007-12-06T14:44:00.000-08:00Another answer that can be done well is: "Everyone...Another answer that can be done well is: "Everyone"<BR/><BR/>If, for each turn, everyone "moves" at the same time the question is basically ignored. The few games that I have played with this system has everyone making their choice in secret (cards face down) and then reveals at the same time.<BR/><BR/>An easy example: Diamant. There are no turns in Diamant since everything happens at the same time.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Other thoughts on the subject: a seating-independent turn order helps avoid problems involving where certain players sit. If the person just before you in turn order is always the same person, you have to specifically adapt your strategy to respond to this person.MrHen.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05321607692461149015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14856978.post-85588439561459159952007-12-06T11:28:00.000-08:002007-12-06T11:28:00.000-08:00The Thebes system is indeed genius and will surely...The Thebes system is indeed genius and will surely be seen again and again in the near future. The reduced risk of analysis paralysis is a tremendous benefit.<BR/><BR/>It makes me wonder, how could a classic such as Tikal benefit from the Thebes AP system?Tim Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06940321577974304200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14856978.post-81019255619155157262007-12-06T11:08:00.000-08:002007-12-06T11:08:00.000-08:00I'm glad to see a post about this issue, because i...I'm glad to see a post about this issue, because it's a point I've always been much interested in as a game designer. I remember the "who plays first" rule being probably the one which changed the most in the different versions of Valley of the Mammoths. I also remember discussing with Bruno Cathala when designing Mission Red Planet about who will become the first player every round - which is not exactly the same question, but a highly related one. I also like the answers to the "who goes next?" question in Citadels or Warrior Knights, and I've made use of the very clever Theben system in an upcoming cooperation game.<BR/>I know many games which look cleverly designed and balanced and fail because this simple issue has not really been considered and the clockwise turn order breaks them.bruno faiduttihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682310975537272740noreply@blogger.com