"So I wanna sell this book."
Eureka! What a find!! A used 3rd Edition D&D Player's Handbook, version 3.0, not 3.5.
"Okay, you want cash or trade?"
"Cash, I gotta bail my mom outta jail."
I could script this one before I even opened my mouth again, but when you'e a friendly and compassionate game store owner you go through the motions, despite knowing it will turn out badly.
"Sure, I'll give you three bucks."
"WHAT!!! Three bucks??? Crap man, I paid like $30 for this thing!"
I looked at the book again, it was the initial release, with a $19.95 price on the back, barely visible where the ink has worn off due to multiple Mountain Dew spills.
"Actually, it's got $19.95 marked on the back. Plus, the book is worn, Wizards of the Coast published a revised edition three years ago and I figure by paying you three dollars I'll only lose two dollars when I sell it."
Now comes the indignation, then the anger.
"That's like total crap man, this book cost me a lot more than three bucks."
"Yes, and that was four years ago and you've used it. Now, will three bucks help you make any headway for mommy's bail money?"
"F**k you man! You guys are all thieves!"
As the angry young man with the incarcerated mother left I began to reflect on twenty-three years of buying used books, games and cards and the astonishing ignorance and disdain that the general public seems to have regarding retail.
What the hell is it about a game store that brings out the tendency in some gamers to automatically assume they're being ripped off? Is it the fact that we're all brothers-in-arms... and sisters as well... and that the average gamer figures owning a store means you don't really have a jorb? I mean "job".
Cruise on over to http://www.boardgamegeek.com/ and you'll see thread after thread about how this game store rips people off and that game store sucks. When you winnow the threads down to their roots what you'll discover is that what pisses these specific gamers off is that they feel somehow entitled to a good deal, or a freebie.
"Yeah, I've been shopping in DW's store for like 15 years."
"That's a long time man."
"Damn straight it is. Hell, I put DW's kids through college! That's how much I spend in here. Right DW?"
"Sure Stewie, I'll make sure Marshall and Jaimy send you a card at Christmas."
In truth, Stewie, and about 50 more like him, probably spent a total of $5,000 each over a period of 15 years of shopping at my store. That represents maybe $2,000 in profit. Spread out over 15 years that's $133 a year.
Thankfully, I didn't count on Stewie for my kid's college fund. They'd be working a collections desk at Sears Credit if I had. Which, by the way, is what Stewie does for a living.
I got an email from a sometime customer a few weeks ago. To sum it up, he said...
I'm going to purchase about $1,000 in 40K goodies. I'll buy it from you if you sell it to me for $675, which is $100 profit for you.
I guess I was supposed to jump up, shout Hoo-Rah! and thank him for the $100.
Not that I hold it against the guy for wanting to get a 35% discount, everybody likes that. But it just irked me that a gamer figured I ought to do that for him, because, after all, he has a real job and he needs to conserve his hard-earned money. Since I only run a game store, $100 from him is, I suppose, an expression of his selfless generosity.
So while I was contemplating how I might respond to his miserable offer... without letting on what a jerk I can be if I want to, he emails me again, letting me know that a store some 30 miles away took the deal. Cool. I guess they needed the hundred more than I did. It's nice to know that Gamers are so considerate of the people who make a living providing the goods to them. I'd bet they were jumping up and down shouting, "WOO HOO! $100 whole dollars!!!"
The day that particular Gamer takes a 75% decrease in his pay so I can get my computers and printers cheaper is the day I'd take his measly $100.
About 17 years ago I worked at a Mercedes dealership... selling Mercedes. Go figure. So this micro-surgeon comes in one day and wants a $50,000 car. I shoot him a deal. He says "I'll be back." He comes back with offers from seven other Mercedes dealerships, each one at about $7,000 less for a similar car. "Why should I buy from you?", he asked.
"Well, because," I said, "you make about $800 an hour. I figure you already invested 5 hours just getting those quotes. That's what? $4,000? And then there's the hour here the other day and the hour now. And since I'm going to say "not a chance" to your offer, that means you'll need to spend another several hours dealing with people in Seattle or Salt Lake, or Denver or Portland. Then you'll have to spend time ensuring the car gets here and is what you ordered. On top of which, if it isn't, now you'll be dealing with people hundreds of miles away who could give a crap who you are."
"In short, they low-balled you Doc. You can probably buy the car for that, but I think by the time you're done you'll have lost as much as you saved. It's a better deal for you to negotiate with me. I'll knock a few thou off and you'll have the car tonight."
The doctor didn't follow my advice. Over the next several days he worked me like a slot machine. He also called every Mercedes dealership from Cody, Wyoming to Indonesia. In the end my boss told me to sell him the fricking car, at about $6,000 off. I think he just wanted to get rid of the guy.
So the Doc invites me out for a Scotch a week after he gets his Mercedes. We're talking and I said, "Hey Doc, if I needed my foot re-attached, what would it cost?"
"Oh, probably about $15K."
"So would you cut me a deal?"
"Not a chance DW. Doctors ain't cheap. Do you know how much it cost me to become one?"
I think that pretty much summed it up for me. Since the car wasn't a necessity, it, and the people who make their living providing the cars, weren't really working. Expensive cars are fun. Right? And so are games. If it's fun, then why pay a fair price for it?
Now I may be wrong about some of this, but...
"Hey DW!"
"Yes?"
"Wanna buy my Star Wars miniatures?"
"Sure Elmore... let's see... hmmm... I'll give you $12 for the whole box."
"TWELVE BUCKS! Jaysus Christo DW! These things are worth 7 times that on eBay!"
"That they are Elmore. So I have a question for you."
"Yeah..."
"Why are you here, instead of home listing these things on eBay?"
"Man... that's so much work. You gotta have PayPal, you gotta wait a week, you have to pack them and go to the post office. It'd be much easier for me if you just paid me what they're worth. Howsa bout it DW?"
"Good point Elmore. Now that I look at it that way, I'll give you $6.50 for the whole box."
A career change can definitely be a good thing. Maybe I need to get a real jorb.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
25 comments:
I'll have to say it again. When you get a "real jorb", it will be the end of a legacy in Idaho. Yea, I know your ready to get out of being behind the counter and your still going to be a gamer. But the ability to wander into DH and watch a game of Memoir or just shoot the BS with you is something that will be lost. I'm sure you'll still be running games either at your home or whatever you end up with for office space. I know I'll enjoy that. Not to mention that will be the end of the "Don't play games that can't be bought at the store" rule and will allow for some of the "classics" to come out again. But it just won't be Idaho gaming without the glass counter at DH.
BTW I'm ready to do some butt-kicking in Renegade Legion Interceptor.
I think b&m retailers are in a pretty hard position right now because you have to convince purchasers that (a) you need to charge higher than Internet discounters because you have actual costs in staff, rent, and stock -and- (b) the value you offer over Internet discounters makes you worth that extra cost.
It's made even more difficult because there's sometimes a disconnect between extra value and extra cost. In other words, if you offer gaming space, people can take advantage of the value without actually having to pay the cost in full-priced games. It instead comes down to a question of morality and personal ethics.
Of course that doctor doesn't have the same problem because you really can't go to the Internet to get your leg reattached, or if you do, you deserve what you get.
Me, I bought games from an Internet store until a local b&m opened up that actually offered services that made them more valuable than the 'net, at which point I shifted my purchases to them, even though it's definitely impacted my pocketbook.
I stopped buying games on-line about two years ago (odd items like Splotter games, and Pitchcar excepted).
After shipping is paid, on line stores can't beat his prices, and I appreciate being able to hold a game before buying it. That last item might not be an issue for those of you who are able to play a friend's copy before buying, but 'round these parts I'm the first guy to buy the game.
Plus, as DW so aptly demonstrates, the local game store provides a gold mine of blogging ideas.
Well, at least it's a hard life all around. Online shopkeeping is difficult, but in different ways.
Just now there's a thread on the 'Geek about how online game stores must offer *free* shipping or else they are doing the gaming public a disservice. And shipping is hella expensive, particularly for games, which are heavy enough to be literature but can't be mailed book rate.
People are motivated first by money, and only second by security and familiarity.
I purchase from my FLGS because of the services they provide which include:
Weekly Game Night with access to 100s of games and them not minding me pawing through them
Advice. They are starting to know me and my tastes. They usually can point me in the right direction.
Touching. I still like to actually go see the games. I am the same way with books. There is nothing like picking up the actual product for inspection.
No waiting for delivery. Come on, who doesn't want to open the games immediately once you put down you dough.
Finally, they are just nice guys and I don't mind paying a small premium because once I factor shipping and waiting it really isn't that much. I find the rare expection but mostly I go online because they can't get the game.
People have realize that FLGS's provide not just a product but a service as well. At least the good ones do. It sounds like DW is one of the good one even though he is a little crusty sometime but dealing with geeks will do that to you.
Hope you don't have to get a "real" job for economic reasons because I have one and I need places like yours to escape it.
All the best,
ROD>
DW
I believe I have seen you make similar arguments about this topic before, but I really have to disagree on your point of view that people do not consider retail a real job. That attitude may be a bit too personal.
In any transaction where money is exchanged both parties are going to try and get the best deal for themselves, this isn't the USSR.
I, as a buyer really don't care that you have kids that you need to send to college, nor do you as the seller care that I have similar concerns.
Also irrelevant is the amount of money I or you as the seller make.(as income) I don't know if you run a game store because you love the hobby and want to promote it or because you sold a dotcom back in the day and have no need to earn money. Either way it doesn't matter.
I guess my point is that neither side is entitled to anything.
As a buyer I am going to look for the best deal (whatever that is in my mind). As a store owner you are going to look to earn a profit (however big or little is a matter of choice).
I personally never fault anyone for trying to earn money, you price your games where you need to earn a living and that's fair. But I expect the same in return from people who expect me to spend money. I will look for the best way for me to spend my money.
The nice part about the system is that both parties can walk away if they are not happy with the deal.
Now a more interesting topic for me would be the economics behind all the freebies that B&M stores do, and why no one charges for things like table space etc. Is there no market for it?
One last thing... as a Capitalist, it is against my religion to believe that a non-viable business strategy should continue. If B&M and mail order are suffering form online sales then I am more apt to believe that there a flaw in that model. If these operations do provide some valuable service; and I am not saying that they don't, then the proper marketing of that service will keep them a float
-M
There is a certain type of person whose entire sense of worth and well-being revolves around the sense of having gotten a "deal." The pleasure of being able to afford something that they want, and then the satisfaction of actually purchasing the item, is never enough for them; they must believe that they have paid less for the item than anyone else. To buy something at wholesale is like warm golden sparkles lapping at their veins; to buy something at retail is the crushing grey failure of worthlessness.
In time these people lose all sense of what they really desire or what is worthwhile to them. They will not buy the clothes, the shoes, or the food that they want, but only what can be gotten for less than the market value. The scratch of rayon, the ache of corns, and the sickening translucent slide of monosodium glutimate down their throats is a symbol of their own resourcefulness and ingenuity.
These are the people who will regale you with fine, filligreed stories of forty-mile detours to hallowed outlet malls, of misguided price tags found dangling from soft garments that were blissfully accepted by a drugged, rashy teen, of bellowing harangues with store managers until Satisfaction was Guaranteed. When you tell them of your own purchases, they always ask how much was paid, and invariably the answer is found wanting.
Oddly enough, financial condition makes no difference to this type of person. They can be grifters living in sooty rent-controlled apartments under the subway or they can be shiny and brittle tanlings in the McMansions on the posh side of towns. Both throw their time and energy into a bottomless hole of haggling, finagling, cursing, cheating, each day tearfully needing to prove anew that they stand above the shoulders of the common man even as they wade chest-deep through their own manure.
Malloc is, of course, correct. Nobody owes anyone anything in a capitalist style economy. The market is king.
Overall, I'd guess my personal point of view about the last 23 years of running a store is that 80% of the gamers really do think they're entitled to something because... well.. because they want it I suppose. But then, that's a fair estimate of how 80% of the population of the free world feels anyway.
As for me, I have almost nothing but good experiences as a game store owner. Even the goofy and often very stupid things that happen are a constant source of amusement for me and I hope for readers of this blog as well.
Game stores are an odd business. That's because it's hard to imagine some enterprising soul who isn't a gamer deciding to start one. From what I have seen comic book stores are similar. So I think the fact that the game fan who enters a store pretty much knows the person behind the counter is "like him" in that respect, it puts the relationship on a different footing than shopping at Costco or Walmart.
Once that is established there seems to be a higher level of expectation from the game store guy than would be demanded from, as example, a tire store or a gas station.
What Malloc doesn't say about his philosophy is whether he looks for the "best deal" in all his expenditures. Does he stand at the counter at Wendy's and ask for a discount? Does he compare McDonald's prices? If he takes his family to a movie does he demand a group discount at the ticket window? Or try and work a deal on the Biggie Popcorn & Monster Soda at the concession stand? Does he demand T1 speed at dial-up pricing from his ISP?
My point being that familiarity does indeed breed a certain level of contempt. In the case of board games the contempt is expressed by many when they demand low prices on one form of entertainment (board games) but not on others.
BGG is a strange place in that so much of the traffic is about how much (or really, how little) different people pay for games. The contempt for those who sell at retail, or nearly so, is far outweighed by the few who understand the value of helping to keep a local merchant fat and happy.
Nobody owes me a living, that's for sure. But frankly, I have zero respect for those who have one standard for board games that they don't even think about applying to other, non-essential, purchases they make in their daily lives.
If the fast-moving world changes the way board games are retailed then so be it. I'll be perfectly happy in the future paying full retail for my addiction if that's what I have to do. If nobody in my area can make a profit running a game store then I suppose I'd end up ordering online. But I hope that's not the case... as Coldfoot, Shannon and Rod have said, I am more than willing to pay a few extra bucks per item just to have the many things available that a local store offers.
Hopefully when I make my shift in the near future the dumb-asses down in Boise will have figured out how to stay in business. It'd be nice to cruise into a store I don't own and just be a customer... well, except for the one guy down there who pisses me off... but then I'd get the chance to treat him like he treated me for the last few years. What fun!
And while I was posting my last comment, Gola was posting his much more precise and accurate commentary. This line in particular pretty much sums it up:
each day tearfully needing to prove anew that they stand above the shoulders of the common man even as they wade chest-deep through their own manure.
Joe... several people have already said they'd buy a book if I wrote one about running a store. I'd sure as hell buy your book if you wrote one too!
Hey DW, a scenario:
Recently I went to a local gaming store to buy Colossal Arena, which was priced $25.87 after tax. It turned out that I only had about $23.45 on me. I went to the cash and asked them if what I had was enough. They shook their heads and said no.
While I've been to the store before, I'm not a regular customer.
If this had happened in your store, would you have sold me the game?
(For the record: I ended up buying Cronberg which was their monthly special for $11.50, and ended up going back 2 weeks later to get Colossal Arena. And I don't blame them for not seeling it to me the first time.)
I myself find it funny that sometimes I spend alot of time and effort inefficiently to try and save money.
Woohoo - my three hours of research saved me $15. Oh wait, I get paid $60 an hour...
I also find all the BGG gamestore bashing very amusing. In a recent thread there was a store selling something above MSRP. There was no evidence of the motives of the gamestore's owner. The default assumption - the owner was a bastard trying to rip everyone off. I don't envy you...
Johnny ~
I'd have sold you the game in a heartbeat. But, to be fair, perhaps the sales clerk you spoke with didn't have the authority to do that.
I'd better get cracking on that book.
Gola's and Tripps characterizations of the bargain hunter don't apply here.
It takes NO special effort to order a game on line and save 35% and get free shipping. In fact, it takes less time and effort than driving to a retail outlet.
Bargaining for McDonald's food is also a poor comparison for two reasons: 1) you've already done your "shopping" before you choose the restaurant - all fast food places have similar prices and by choosing one you have already made your price / quality choice and
2) No one else makes a Big Mac.
Here we have two straw men grasping at straws... and patting themselves on the back for being morally superior to those they criticize.
The better arguments are community-based. I live in an area where almost everyone runs a small business. We all buy from each other. Everyone lives happy.
DW - For the most part I understand you , but, as a technicality, you're being a little unfair in your comparisons.
The reason noone bargains at a fast food restaurants is because they NEVER offer food for less. Unless it is specifically advertised as such for a sale with specific dates. If there was an offer last week, or an offer next week, you can be sure that some people will try to bargain.
Same with movie theaters. Noone asks for discounts because discounts are never given. Noone ever bargains at Walmart, either.
On the other hand, game stores around the country offer wildly different prices for the same games. How is that possible? Do they pay different prices to the wholesalers? Why is it $27.14 at this store and $29.03 at that store? Many place offer price matching if approached.
Also, as manager of the store, I bet you often make up package deals: buy these three games and I'll give you 5% off or something like that. Your store falls within an area of the market where prices are flexible, supply is great, and bargaining sometimes pays off. If you NEVER bargained, people would probably learn.
And you are also talking about buying stuff back. That is always assumed to be bargaining.
And really, as a consumer, why would I want to pay $2.00 more for the game if I am happy buying it from any of several different locations?
Still, what you are describing is just rudeness. A simple question is not out of the realm of good manners. But haranguing the manager certainly is.
Yehuda
Yehuda, etc. ~
I still stand by what I consider a double-standard. Here's why... eating is eating. McDonald's is entertainment. I can make 1 month worth of just food for the same price as one week's worth of fast food. To choose to spend extra for entertainment eating while suggesting that retailers who sell near retail are greedy is duplicitous.
A movie is a movie at home for $1.99 with a .37 cent bag of microwave popcorn... to spend $9 for a ticket, gas money, time and then $12 at a concession stand is entertainment. The same as board games. To assert that a retailer is being greedy and then pay full pop for entertainment elsewhere that can be had for less is hypocritical.
I'm not suggesting that people don't have a right to spend their money as they see fit. They certainly do and I'd get pissy if someone told me I couldn't. But excuse me... to accuse a small business of greed and even lack of ethics for charging full price for a $30 game is a demonstration of the character flaws that Gola describes.
The reasons I would personally pay $2 more are many... starting with the experience, if it's a good place to shop, chat and meet new players. The touchy-feely thing means a lot to me as well. The instant gratification has a value too, perhaps moreso for some people. I could go on.
My point? You're your own boss when it comes to money, but to slam one style of retailer for pricing and then turn around and spend other entertainment bucks at full price is petty and even mean. Board games, for some bizzare reason, seem to have become a product that attracts more than it's share of greedy and avaricious fans who bitch loudly about a $5 price difference while munching down a $6 Meal Deal.
Forgo one Big Mac meal or Wendy's Triple Burger deal every week and the money you save will more than make up for supporting a local retailer. Plus, you'll feel better, look better and, after a year or so, you'll go from an XXXL to a normal human-sized t-shirt.
Board games, for some bizzare reason, seem to have become a product that attracts more than it's share of greedy and avaricious fans who bitch loudly about a $5 price difference while munching down a $6 Meal Deal.
Maybe they're just a very loud and immature minority. We don't have an influx of more mainstream people who aren't as hung up on these issues, which would leaven out the intensity of the bargain-hunters.
I have seen people claim that online stores are much better than local stores *simply* because of price (as if that were the only factor) rather than atmosphere or community (and indeed, it doesn't seem to come into their equations).
I can only conclude that some of them are very lonely people.
DW says:
To choose to spend extra for entertainment eating while suggesting that retailers who sell near retail are greedy is duplicitous.
That's not the part that I was arguing about. I agree with you. I also see your point about equating different types of entertainment. I don't think anyone is greedy for selling things in an open market at any price, unless what they have is both a virtual monopoly and a virtual necessity.
I was only pointing out that you should not be surprised that people will bargain if bargaining sometimes pays off, however rare that is.
In some parts of the middle east, people make all kinds of insinuations about the other person while bargaining, none of which is taken seriously. ("You call that a gem? I've found better gems falling out of my shoe in the morning!" "Ah! My poor family will starve! That is a fabled treasure!" etc.) That's part of the game (a stupid game, but a game nonetheless).
You can forgo all of this nonsense buy posting a big sign: We Do Not Bargain.
Yehuda
DW,
How many of that 80% buy the games anyway?
Also, I do not ask the kid at McDonalds for a discount because I know he in not in a position to grant me one.
I do however eat at places that I think offer a better value for my money. Really, thats what I do most of the time with games as well... if I don't like the price I will shop someplace else.
Now a retail shop owner does have that power.
-M
Yehuda said:
"You can forgo all of this nonsense buy posting a big sign: We Do Not Bargain."
My guess is all this would allow for is simply pointing to the sign as a responce, not a reduction in the amount of times the question is asked.
-M
Having worked at Wal-Mart more than any one person should (more than a year is too long...), I can say with certainty people do try and nickel and dime you for socks, food, and other silly things. Usually its the old timers that are outraged that a tube of toothpaste costs more than a nickel. However, I did get a lot of kids trying to get me to lower the prices on video games and young business men trying to haggle their way into a sweet price for a TV.
I think the reason that you don't see poeple haggling over the prices at McDonald's and the movie theatre has less to do with the type of commodity sold and more to do with the fact that the people running the counters don't care if they sell anything or not - they make their $5.25 an hour one way or another. People know that they might be able to convince a small business owner to lower their prices to make a sale, but they also know that the clock-punchers at the fast food chains won't take the effort to a) risk their job over lowering a price and b) waste their energy and mental-prowess trying to figure out how to make the register give the discount (no offense to clock-punchers...).
~jw
To the masked poster--
I was speaking generally about the hagglers, cheaters and store-manager abusers of the world. I wasn't referring to garden-variety thriftiness. I myself buy almost all my games online (sorry, Tripp, but there isn't a FLGS that offers any added value in my neck of the woods). However, I've never badgered anyone to reduce their price for me. They post a price and I either cheerfully pay it or I cheerfully don't.
Sorry if I hit a little too close to the bone for you, Mr. X.
Your logic is a bit flawed. Fast food and movie theaters don't 'haggle?' That's not quite totally true.
1st, some fast food places DO 'haggle.' My dad does it all the time - Ever hear the phrase, "Do you have a senior/military discount?" or the ever popular "Do you have any specials going on?" "I have a coupon."
2nd, I've shopped with Wolf since the mid 80's. Even when I was a punk kid, the guy cut me slack and would give discounts periodically. The used junk - sorry, I mean treasured preplayed gaming supplies - he purchased were always for sale cheap. And collecting dust since pretty much no one wanted them and it appeared to be Wolf's efforts at some sort of gamer welfare system.
3rd, Movie prices vary. Edwards/Regal offer GATS - General Admission Tickets for (In our area at least) $2 less than the price at the box office. Just have to buy them off site (At Costco or online or phone or at a local Credit Union) Or catch an early show. Or wait a couple weeks and it is showing at the cheap seats.
4th, if only online game shops survive, the gaming world will be crushed. I would NOT have became a gamer if not for the crack like addiction Wolf and two of his store managers. I also wouldn't spend $40+ to buy a starter box of WarMachine if SOMEONE didn't demo it. To tell the truth, I think the local stores FEED the online guys. Local stores create gamers. If the local stores die, so will the pull for new players. There would be some, sure, but not as many.
And game & comic stores are not alone. It is also the same for R/C hobby stores.
Finally, Wolf's store will be missed. The other 2 'contenders' in the area have a tough act to follow.
Some people will always go for the cheapest - me too usually. The intangibles can make a difference though. If you think game stores SHOULD haggle, well, I've given you a couple ideas to use to haggle with food and movies also. (I could give even more for food. I used to manage stores for a major chain. Maybe not a McDonalds, but hey, beggers can't be choosers.)
Finally, Wolf's store will be missed. The other 2 'contenders' in the area have a tough act to follow.
Heh... thanks Mike. Reading your commentary reminded me to hire you as my accountant if my new ventures start making actual cash.
You point out very well that one can invest the same time in other entertainment purchases and save money elsewhere... which should equate to extra cash for games.
If such a thing as "consumer integrity" exists I think you nailed exactly what it is that irks me about the attitude that games ought to be discounted while the consumer doesn't apply the same set of rules to other merchants. A lack of consumer integrity might be the source. Or perhaps many game stores are under seige and reacting instead of building new strategies.
Whatever the case, it'll be interesting to be be a game consumer again rather than a retailer.
I have to tell you that it's not just gamers and game stroes that face this problem. It's every retail store. Actually, every business period. I own a car wash, and you would not believe how many people per day that try to argue out of paying $12 for a car wash, like I'm Donald Trump over here with a pile a pile of dough.
"I could was=h it at home for free!"
"Then why are you here?"
It's society today. Everyone expects something for nothing, and gets angry when, as a business, I try to pay my rent.
Post a Comment